Build a Better Battle Tier

[BugCatcher6]

I would like to start work on a battle guide for trainers to learn from. I want to start by building up the tiers that most battles are define by. I know the rules for Gym Battles here are No Ubers, No Legendaries, but are Legendaries really Ubers? I will start first with the Uber Tier. I looked on other forums and sites and have found the following Pokemon the most common on the list of ubers. If you think anymore should be added or removed please post and give a reason why they should be removed or why another Pokemon should be added.

Ubers/Legendaries - Pokemon that are too powerful in a competitive setting and are banned from most battles, unless agreed upon by both battlers before hand. Legendaries are banned from all Gym Battles.
Arceus
Articuno
Azelf
Celebi
Cresselia
Darkrai
Deoxys (All forms)
Dialga
Entei
Giratina
Groudon
Heatran
Ho-oh
Jirachi
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Mesprit
Moltres
Palkia
Raikou
Rayquaza
Regice
Regigigas
Regirock
Registeel
Shaymin
Suicune
Uxie
Wobbuffet
Wynaut
ZapdosAlso I know not all Legendaries are on this list, but on most sites not all Legendaries are listed as Ubers. Should all Legendaries be added to this list since they are banned from Gym battle?

[Gamegeezer]

Aren't most legendary pokemon's stats far above the average pokemon's; which make them legendary? Just asking, no sarcasm intended, honest. :)

[cyndaman]

why the hecks wobbufet on there, i know it is sometimes counted as an uber, but what "uber characteristics" does it have

[tyvaughn]

thats exactly wat i said:lol:

[WestCoastNinja]

people say its uber cuz its ability plus its stamina combined with counter and mirrior coat it is pretty much guaranteed a ko

[BugCatcher6]

people say its uber cuz its ability plus its stamina combined with counter and mirrior coat it is pretty much guaranteed a ko

That is correct. Wob's moves allow it to counter Physical or Special attacks. Only U-turn and Baton Pass can switch out against him and the main reason is if you and your opponent both have one and it is both your last Pokemon then the battle cannot finish.

Not all Legendaries are high stat monsters. Regigigas, Regirock, Registeel, Moltres, Mesprit, and Entei all fall into most sites borderline tier, a full 2 tiers below Ubers. The main reason is their move pool or their types, but their stats fall into the category of most normal Pokemon.


I noticed not any real change needed so far to the first post. Does anyone think all Legendaries should be added to the Uber tier? I was considering making it an Uber/Legendary since this site does not allow Legendaries into Gym Battles.

[cyndaman]

i like the idea theres no entei on the list, he's a monster if you learn how to use him, and okay, i get the wobbufet thing (gotta start training one

[nagib_253]

hi bugcatcher i heard some people saying that arcanine is in the list of ubers
i think he is in the list cause his stats are high..
so please can you find out more informtion about that...

[BugCatcher6]

hi bugcatcher i heard some people saying that arcanine is in the list of ubers
i think he is in the list cause his stats are high..
so please can you find out more informtion about that...

All sites I look at have Arcanine listed in the Borderline Tier. He has good stats and a fair type, but I believe it is his move pool that keeps him from moving up. True since D/P has been released Arcanine has received some nice new moves, but not enough to truly make him uber.

[Jhamin]

My understanding of the Tier system is that "ubers" are generally defined as pokemon so powerful that even if you have the right moves to trump their types they will probably win anyway due to high stats or one-off abilites.

Below that are "over-used" pokemon that, although powerful, are still cabable of being defeated by opponents who have well built teams with the right counters.



From what I understand from sitting on the sidelines of the competitive battles circut, pokemon like the legendary birds, the legendary dogs, and the Regies are powerful but just don't have the moves or stats to stand up to the likes of MewTwo, Rayquiza, or Ho-Ho. I think that it's fine to leave some legendaries legal on the general competitive circut.

But this is Pokefarm. And as it has been pointed out, Pokefarm has it's own gym system that bans *all* legendaries.

In my opinion (as a new guy who has been here for less than two weeks) it's probably better to have a consistent set of rules for wifi battles that are centered around this page and these forums. If there are no Legends in gym battles, it is probably better to outlaw them on the general battle threads hosted by this site. There are plenty of other boards that are much more dedicated to "general battles", while this one seems mostly focused on breeding. (which Legendaries cannot be a part of)

[BugCatcher6]

My understanding of the Tier system is that "ubers" are generally defined as pokemon so powerful that even if you have the right moves to trump their types they will probably win anyway due to high stats or one-off abilites.

Below that are "over-used" pokemon that, although powerful, are still cabable of being defeated by opponents who have well built teams with the right counters.



From what I understand from sitting on the sidelines of the competitive battles circut, pokemon like the legendary birds, the legendary dogs, and the Regies are powerful but just don't have the moves or stats to stand up to the likes of MewTwo, Rayquiza, or Ho-Ho. I think that it's fine to leave some legendaries legal on the general competitive circut.

But this is Pokefarm. And as it has been pointed out, Pokefarm has it's own gym system that bans *all* legendaries.

In my opinion (as a new guy who has been here for less than two weeks) it's probably better to have a consistent set of rules for wifi battles that are centered around this page and these forums. If there are no Legends in gym battles, it is probably better to outlaw them on the general battle threads hosted by this site. There are plenty of other boards that are much more dedicated to "general battles", while this one seems mostly focused on breeding. (which Legendaries cannot be a part of)

Thank you this is the answer I was looking for. Once I start the Tier for the site I will make sure to post about Gym Battles, but as always Ubers/legendaries are decided before the battle by the battlers in normal play.

[BugCatcher6]

So let's move on to the OverUsed Tier.

Overused - Pokemon best suited to the competitive level.
Aerodactyl
Alakazam
Blissey
Bronzong
Dragonite
Dugtrio - 1 Vote to drop to borderline.
Dusknoir
Electivire
Gallade
Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heracross
Infernape
Jolteon
Lucario
Metagross
Porygon-Z
Rhyperior
Salamence
Skarmory
Slaking
Snorlax
Starmie
Swampert
Tauros
Togekiss
Tyranitar
Weavile
YanmegaHow about this list? Taken from other sites, this is the Pokemon I found the most in the OU Tier. Are there any you think should be added or any in this list that you think should not be?

Also look over the Ubers/Legendaries list and see if I missed any Legendaries.

[WestCoastNinja]

Dugtrio? i dont think its atk is high enough to ignore the low stamina.

[Gamegeezer]

Wow, i must apologize to most people i've battled, i've no idea i've been battling with OU's up the @%&@*%&*#*!#*(!*&$*%&!. I had no idea OU stood for over-used, thought it meant like having a stacked pokemon team (meaning that a pokemon team well prepared to be a particular trainers pokemon). Alakazam happened to be my favorite from the very first game, and for it be an OU well, i guess it's no surprise. I guess i shoulda known garchomp was an OU, but the darn gible was so cute when i first got it, i had to see it evolve. And my girl gave me a weavile because she said it would help. *sigh* I guess i'm an over-user @_@ :sad:

Thanks jhamin and Buzz for pointing this out to me, this thread has been most helpful. I do believe some reps need to be distributed.

[WestCoastNinja]

theres nothing wrong with using ous if your trying to win an important battle. thats why im making special tournys. they are fun without ous or at least a limit to them.

[Gamegeezer]

Yeah, i just find it sad that what i like happens to be "over-rated" or "over-used" or "what everybody does"..........it kinda puts ya down ya know? I mean, i thought not having legendaries was one thing to avoid, but this, jeezuz. Well, it's nice to know some of the current pokemon in my team aren't on the OU list but still kick butt. I'll never give up that amazing alakazam though (my pride and joy *sobs*).

Hey wait a minute, i might have missed the debate on this one, but isn't lucario a legendary? :confused:

[WestCoastNinja]

no way. a legendary is a pokemon that has a legend behind it. all of them do. except maybe phione. legends and ubers are pretty much the same. the only non legend uber is wobba.

[Gamegeezer]

That's the thing that gets me though, there are some pokemon that do/don't meet that criteria and it's getting real confusing as to defining which is which. I mean, most of the time, if you can only get a pokemon (excluding the starters) once in a game and only through a certain course of events (must be a new pokemon to the series the date it was released) it would be considered/classified as legendary. Then again there is always that debate about legendaries being non-breedable, but there we go with the greatest exception, manaphy/phione combo. Nintendo/Pokemon/Whoever should make a official listing or something. :sad: The stats aren't enough to go off of alone (as our conversation in the past has stated) so it makes things that much harder to find out what is what. I find this whole matter, brain bustin. :confused:

[WestCoastNinja]

w8 a minute. i 4got to mention ubers and legends arnt the same. i meant that all ubers are legend except wobba.

[Gamegeezer]

Yeah, i know that. I'm just confused as to the whole defining a legendary pokemon thing. I mean, what makes a legendary, a legendary? There seems to be no definite answer. I think i remember my girl saying there was a movie about lucario or some craziness. @_@ I don't know anymore because i stopped watching the movies after the mewtwo one, i take that back,the entei one. Gonna sleep this stuff off. Maybe it'll make sense tomorrow. :lol:


And yes ubers are the godly pokemon who are tough to take down no matter what. I'm not concerned with that, i'm just trying to figure out what separates a regular pokemon from a legendary.

[WestCoastNinja]

the legend in the lucario movie is mew. its an easy question i already answered. a legend is called legendary bcuz in the game there is always a legend about them. an in game story. like how arceus is creator of pokemon. thats the legend behind the legendary. i hope i helped.

[BugCatcher6]

Dugtrio? i dont think its atk is high enough to ignore the low stamina.

Again Dugtrio is in the Over Used because of it's Speed, but mainly due to its Abilities and Move Pool. It does have 120 Base Speed.

[WestCoastNinja]

yeah but speed is nothing without atk and stamina. i know from using an electrode. what a terrible move pool. anyway i think it should be BL.

[BugCatcher6]

Overused - Pokemon best suited to the competitive level.
Aerodactyl
Alakazam
Blissey
Bronzong
Dragonite
Dugtrio - 1 Vote to drop to borderline.
Dusknoir
Electivire
Gallade
Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heracross
Infernape
Jolteon
Lucario
Metagross
Porygon-Z
Rhyperior
Salamence
Skarmory
Slaking - Great Pokemon, but truant hurts it, I vote to bump down to BL. 1 Vote to drop to BL
Snorlax
Starmie
Swampert
Tauros - Decent, but lacks move pool. I vote him down one. 1 Vote to drop to BL
Togekiss
Tyranitar
Weavile
YanmegaMy adds to the OU Tier
Breloom - Spore + Attack Power. Only downside is the 4x Damage from Flying attacks.
Donphan - Perfect Stealth Rocker
Hippowdon - High Defense with Curse and Slack Off.
Machamp - No Guard Ability and Dynamic Punch.
Magnezone - Defense, Special Attack, and moves, wow.
Mamoswine - Nice Stats and decent move pool, yikes.
Medicham - Pure Power Ability and add a Choice Scarf.
Ninjask - This is the definition of OverUsed.
Tangrowth - Great Stats HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack. Move Pool is great as well.


How about this list? Taken from other sites, this is the Pokemon I found the most in the OU Tier. Are there any you think should be added or any in this list that you think should not be?

Also look over the Ubers/Legendaries list and see if I missed any Legendaries.

[WestCoastNinja]

your uber list is perfect. the only thing i noticed on the ou is ambipom isnt on it. i have seen it on another persons list. would you like the link?

[BugCatcher6]

your uber list is perfect. the only thing i noticed on the ou is ambipom isnt on it. i have seen it on another persons list. would you like the link?
Yeah let me have the link. I am trying to piece together from 5 sites he-he.

Oh I think Ambipom is OU, but he should be considered Borderline. His Speed and Attack are good, but he is used mainly as a Baton Passer. His Attack Power comes out more in the Borderline group.

[BugCatcher6]

I just thought of something, I started this as a guide to Tiers for this site. I got my tiers from other sites just to get things started. So voting and voicing your opinions here can lead to building our own tiers for this site. I believe the Uber/Legendaries are set. As far as the OverUsed we have some voting to do. Also if you feel a Pokemon should be removed or added to the OU list please post which Pokemon. Also please give a reason why.

Pokemon to Drop from the OU
Dugtrio - Reason to drop, low Attack and HP.
Slaking - Great Pokemon, but truant hurts it.
Tauros - Decent, but lacks move pool.Pokemon to Add to the OU
Breloom - Spore + Attack Power. Only downside is the 4x Damage from Flying attacks.
Donphan - Perfect Stealth Rocker
Hippowdon - High Defense with Curse and Slack Off.
Machamp - No Guard Ability and Dynamic Punch.
Magnezone - Defense, Special Attack, and moves, wow.
Mamoswine - Nice Stats and decent move pool, yikes.
Medicham - Pure Power Ability and add a Choice Scarf.
Ninjask - This is the definition of OverUsed.
Tangrowth - Great Stats HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack. Move Pool is great as well.Anyone else have any opinions? Please help build our own tiers.

[WestCoastNinja]

to tell you the truth i have only seen one ninjask used competivly. but it is ou. you got alot that i missed to tell you. i will get you the link 2morow. im on a psp now. no copy/paste.

[BugCatcher6]

to tell you the truth i have only seen one ninjask used competivly. but it is ou. you got alot that i missed to tell you. i will get you the link 2morow. im on a psp now. no copy/paste.

Wow I see Ninjask pretty regularly in my Gym. He is like the staple of many Swords Dance Teams. In the 3 turns it takes to max out Swords Dance he has already gained 2 rounds of boosted Speed. A real pain for any else that starts out with a Baton Passer or a Hazard Pokemon.

[WestCoastNinja]

i wouldent be surprised if most if not all the people who used ninjask on you got the idea from battling me. : D

it is easily counterd by skarmory if you use right. thats why i never use it unless im sure my opponent wont have skarm.

[Nak]

OMFG you need to add Chansey and Blissey to the OU list. They all xxxx me off with their HP, Def, and Sp. Def. stats. Especially that Minimize + Defense Curl combo, my God it's annoying.

edit: I see Blissey is added, but Chansey should be too. They're pretty much the same thing.

[BugCatcher6]

Anyone else think Chansey should be on the OU list? In looking around the web, Chansey is not in any Tier.



Pokemon to Drop from the OU
Dugtrio - Reason to drop, low Attack and HP.
Slaking - Great Pokemon, but truant hurts it.
Tauros - Decent, but lacks move pool.Pokemon to Add to the OU
Breloom - Spore + Attack Power. Only downside is the 4x Damage from Flying attacks.
Chansey - Not fully evolved, but as effective as Blissey.
Donphan - Perfect Stealth Rocker
Hippowdon - High Defense with Curse and Slack Off.
Machamp - No Guard Ability and Dynamic Punch.
Magnezone - Defense, Special Attack, and moves, wow.
Mamoswine - Nice Stats and decent move pool, yikes.
Medicham - Pure Power Ability and add a Choice Scarf.
Ninjask - This is the definition of OverUsed.
Tangrowth - Great Stats HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack. Move Pool is great as well.Anyone else have any opinions? Please help build our own tiers.

[WestCoastNinja]

OMFG you need to add Chansey and Blissey to the OU list. They all xxxx me off with their HP, Def, and Sp. Def. stats. Especially that Minimize + Defense Curl combo, my God it's annoying.

edit: I see Blissey is added, but Chansey should be too. They're pretty much the same thing.

blissy actually has one of the lowest def in the game. but the huge hp hides that.

[BugCatcher6]

blissy actually has one of the lowest def in the game. but the huge hp hides that.

That is why Blissey is a Special Wall. Also if you build Blissey right her Defense is slighty above average and she rocks.

[WestCoastNinja]

yeah. i have never had a problem with bliss. she dont scare me!

i think that nintendo needs to just make every new pokemon in the game have an ou final evolution. 100 + new pokemon each with a final evolution good enough to be ou would keep teams alot more diverse.

[Gamegeezer]

Wouldn't that defeat the meaning of overused though? >.< Sorry just being silly again. :lol:

[WestCoastNinja]

thats the whole point. to eliminate the term ou.

[Gamegeezer]

Hahahaha, that's a good idea. Also, thanks for the info on legendaries earlier, i read back on that and it made perfect sense. :)

[BugCatcher6]

I hate the term UO as well, but from another site I found out that not liking the fact that people went and put Pokemon in a tiers means I am a noob. The Tiers are put out so that battling can be as fair as possible. Although I think any Pokemon can be great, the fact remains that not all can if they are put against some of the beast in the upper tiers. I don't think all Pokemon should be able to evolve into some OU beast. I do believe all Pokemon should be able to form some purpose. Sweeper, Wall, Annoyer, Baton Passer, or any other of the categories. I think that would balance Pokemon out considerably.

[Gamegeezer]

Yeah, i remember when i played pokemon stadium way back when, and i used to play with any pokemon, and it'd be somewhat equal. The pre-evolution forms now, well, they don't stand a darn chance against hardly any other pokemon other than pre-evo's. :(

[belnumcree]

Wow, i must apologize to most people i've battled, i've no idea i've been battling with OU's up the @%&@*%&*#*!#*(!*&$*%&!. I had no idea OU stood for over-used, thought it meant like having a stacked pokemon team (meaning that a pokemon team well prepared to be a particular trainers pokemon). Alakazam happened to be my favorite from the very first game, and for it be an OU well, i guess it's no surprise. I guess i shoulda known garchomp was an OU, but the darn gible was so cute when i first got it, i had to see it evolve. And my girl gave me a weavile because she said it would help. *sigh* I guess i'm an over-user @_@ :sad:

Thanks jhamin and Buzz for pointing this out to me, this thread has been most helpful. I do believe some reps need to be distributed.

It's OK the first step toward recovery is admitting you have a problem....

:lol:


I think I should maybe start cutting back now... (at least a little)

[Gamegeezer]

Well, i'm doing ok now, i've got half my team OU's.....so that's gotta be somewhat good...........although, don't think for a minute i'm ever giving up my alakazam >.<

[belnumcree]

Half my team is OU as well... I was thinking about changing out one of my pokes though... Just not sure which pokemon to trade out yet.

[WestCoastNinja]

you guys make me feel bad about having an all ou team.

[Gamegeezer]

O.o Good lord..............now i don't regret having an OU team, thanks a lot >.> :lol:

[BugCatcher6]

That is why they are called Overused, if only a few people would use them then the tiers would be Ubers, Super, Moderate, and Underlings.

I am still not feeling Chansey on the OU Tier. I could see her as a borderline, I just don't like having a Pokemon that is not fully evolved in a high tier, that goes for Wynaut as well, but Wynaut again is kinda iffy compared to other Pokemon.

[Jhamin]

As for everyone feeling bad about using overused pokemon...

Remember that the whole point of a "Tier" system is that you can have some semblence of balance when people sign up for a battle.

If you have an "anything goes" battle, then expect to see teams of Legendarys.
If there is going to be an "Overused" battle then expect Garchomps, Alakazams, and Infernapes. The guy who brings Groudon has not read the rules and doesn't get to run roughshod over the others.

If you show up to an "anything goes" battle with a team full of Octillary and Butterfree, then you should be commended for any wins, but should not be suprised if you get pasted.


As I read the rules for Gym battles on this board, they are sort of a backhanded way of saying "Gym battles are Overused level matches". Which is fine. And you should bring a team full of overused, as they are the best Poke's you are allowed.

[BugCatcher6]

As for everyone feeling bad about using overused pokemon...

Remember that the whole point of a "Tier" system is that you can have some semblence of balance when people sign up for a battle.

If you have an "anything goes" battle, then expect to see teams of Legendarys.
If there is going to be an "ubers" battle then expect Garchomps, Alakazams, and Infernapes. The guy who brings Groudon has not read the rules and doesn't get to run roughshod over the others.

If you show up to an "anything goes" battle with a team full of Octillary and Butterfree, then you should be commended for any wins, but should not be suprised if you get pasted.


As I read the rules for Gym battles on this board, they are sort of a backhanded way of saying "Gym battles are Ubers level matches". Which is fine. And you should bring a team full of overused, as they are the best Poke's you are allowed.

Good Points. As far as I know my Gym Team only has 2 OU.

[Gamegeezer]

I thought alakazam and garchomp weren't ubers but just OU's. Heck, even a infernape isn't an uber, is it?

[BugCatcher6]

Pokemon to Drop from the OU
Dugtrio - Reason to drop, low Attack and HP.
Slaking - Great Pokemon, but truant hurts it.
Tauros - Decent, but lacks move pool.Pokemon to Add to the OU
Breloom - Spore + Attack Power. Only downside is the 4x Damage from Flying attacks.
Donphan - Perfect Stealth Rocker.
Empoleon - Versatility.
Hippowdon - High Defense with Curse and Slack Off.
Machamp - No Guard Ability and Dynamic Punch.
Magnezone - Defense, Special Attack, and moves, wow.
Mamoswine - Nice Stats and decent move pool, yikes.
Medicham - Pure Power Ability and add a Choice Scarf.
Milotic - Stats and move pool.
Ninjask - This is the definition of OverUsed.
Tangrowth - Great Stats HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack. Move Pool is great as well.Anyone else have any opinions? Please help build our own tiers.

Any questions, comments, or insults on the above Pokemon?

[Jhamin]

I thought alakazam and garchomp weren't ubers but just OU's. Heck, even a infernape isn't an uber, is it?

That was a typo on my part. :oops: They are generally considered Overused.

Let me edit

[Gamegeezer]

No prob dude, just that i get confused rather easily. :lol:

[WestCoastNinja]

empoleon maybe.milotic 4 sure. it helped me win the survival tourny. good old milotic.

p.s. is it said (my-low-tick) or ( mi-lot-ick)

[Gamegeezer]

My girl says My-low-tick. And she's generally 100% accurate on these matters. :)

[BugCatcher6]

Most sites just call it Milo.

[WestCoastNinja]

did you think those pokes i said are ou material buzz. milotic should be

[BugCatcher6]

Empoleon is definitely an OU. I have seen him in about 95% of my Gym Battles. I would say stat wise Milotic is as well, but for some reason alot of people don't use that Poke alot.


I know building this tier guide will not really mean anything, because every site goes by different rules. I just want to build one that is aligned with the rules this site has set forth. As always tiers mean nothing if people agree before hand, but this could help when doing tournaments and say the requirement is POKEFARM.COM's Never Used Tier Pokemon. This will give tournaments a hard list to choose from.

[WestCoastNinja]

thats cool. im gonna make a uu and a nu tourny. but that wont be 4 a long while. the tier list should be done by then.

[BugCatcher6]

Overused - Pokemon best suited to the competitive level.
Aerodactyl
Alakazam
Blissey
Breloom
Bronzong
Donphan
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Dusknoir
Electivire
Empoleon
Forretress
Gallade
Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heracross
Hippowdon
Infernape
Jolteon
Lucario
Machamp
Magnezone

Mamoswine
Magmortar

Medicham
Metagross
Milotic
Ninjask
Porygon-Z
Rhyperior
Salamence
Skarmory
Slaking
Snorlax
Starmie
Swampert
Tangrowth
Togekiss
Tyranitar
Weavile
YanmegaIs this acceptable by all. I know I wanted to remove Slaking and WestCoastNinja wanted to remove Dugtrio, but there were no other votes or reasons why they should. If people agree to this tier we can move onto the next tier.

Bold = New to the Tier Pokemon.
Italic = Pokemon up for removal from the Tier.


Any other adds or removes? Also does anyone think Wynaut belongs in the Uber/Legendaries Tier? I added him for the same reason as Wobbuffet, be he really is not as strong, but could be played the same. Also someone mentioned Chansey should be moved into the OU Tier, again a Pokemon not fully evolved I have trouble adding to high up in the Tiers.

[BugCatcher6]

Also we can start on the borderline tier.

Border-Line - Pokémon are considered to be too strong for Moderately Used tier and may be found in some Over-Used battles. They are classified as Border-Line because they simply do not have the capacity to compete in solid OU consistently.

Abomasnow
Ambipom
Arcanine
Armaldo
Blaziken
Charizard
Cradily
Crobat
Drapion
Feraligatr
Flygon
Gallade
Hariyama
Kingdra
Lapras
Leafeon
Ludicolo
Magmortar
Miltank
Ninetales
Pinsir
Rampardos
Roserade
Sceptile
Steelix
Tauros
Torterra
Vaporeon
Venusaur
Zangoose
Any thoughts on this Tier? As well as any tweaks needing done to the above OU Tier.

[WestCoastNinja]

ive seen magmortar on ou b4.

EDIT: froslass could be a beast with choice specs

[BugCatcher6]

ive seen magmortar on ou b4.

EDIT: froslass could be a beast with choice specs

Good call. Anyone else think Magmortar and Froslass belongs in UO?

[WestCoastNinja]

heres that tier list buzz.

http://z6.invisionfree.com/pokemon_nation/index.php?showtopic=1310

[BugCatcher6]

heres that tier list buzz.

http://z6.invisionfree.com/pokemon_nation/index.php?showtopic=1310

Thank you WCN. When I get a few minutes I will check it out. I am in the process of rewriting MY Characteristic charts. I copied it from another site and I found a problem with it and I am remaking the entire chart to be easier to edit in the future if I find more.

[BugCatcher6]

Wow I can't believe no one has any more to add. Maybe I should move Magmortar to OU and leave this tier as is and move on to the next?

[Nak]

The link provided by WCN pretty much speaks for itself, lol. I'm suprised that a couple of Pokemon in the UU list aren't in the OU list though.

[BugCatcher6]

Border-Line - Pokémon are considered to be too strong for Moderately Used tier and may be found in some Over-Used battles. They are classified as Border-Line because they simply do not have the capacity to compete in solid OU consistently.

Abomasnow
Ambipom
Armaldo
Blaziken
Charizard
Cradily
Crobat
Drapion
Feraligatr
Flygon
Froslass

Gallade
Hariyama
Kingdra
Lapras
Leafeon
Ludicolo
Miltank
Ninetales
Pinsir
Rampardos
Roserade
Sceptile
Steelix
Tauros
Torterra
Vaporeon
Venusaur
ZangooseSo this is the final Borderline tier. I will move Magmortar to OU.

Anyone have anything else they want to add or remove?

[WestCoastNinja]

froslass should be BL.

[BugCatcher6]

froslass should be BL.

I am sorry. I just noticed I did not have her on any list. I thought at first you meant she should be on OU, but I don;t have her on OU or BL. I will edit.

[BugCatcher6]

Moderately-Used - MU Pokémon fell from BL and moved up from UU. They are not recommended by some to be for use outside of their tier.


Absol
Aggron
Bastiodon
Blastoise
Cacturne
Clefable
Cloyster
Dodrio
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Espeon
Exeggutor
Floatzel
Gardevoir
Glaceon
Golduck
Golem
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Houndoom
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Lanturn
Lickilicky
Luxray
Marowak
Meganium
Muk
Mismagius
Omastar
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Octillery
Poliwrath
Probopass
Rapidash
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Slowking
Smeargle
Spiritomb
Swellow
Tentacruel
Toxicroak
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Walrein
Yanmega
Again I looked threw a few sites and made this list. If you see any Pokemon that I may have on another tier list please let me know. Also if you believe their are any Pokemon on any other list that are just not strong enough for that tier or any Pokemon not on this tier or any tier above this one and you feel they are strong enough please let me know.

[Jhamin]

The only comment I may have is that Arcanine's status on borderline may change in Diamond/Pearl. Previously he was really good and had extremespeed but lacked a decent STAB attack that matched his stats.

Now that he has picked up FlareBlitz there are some who feel he is worthy of being moved to OU.

[BugCatcher6]

The only comment I may have is that Arcanine's status on borderline may change in Diamond/Pearl. Previously he was really good and had extremespeed but lacked a decent STAB attack that matched his stats.

Now that he has picked up FlareBlitz there are some who feel he is worthy of being moved to OU.

Arcanine to the OU tier. Anyone think otherwise? I feel this is a good move as well.

[BugCatcher6]

Moderately-Used - MU Pokémon fell from BL and moved up from UU. They are not recommended by some to be for use outside of their tier.


Absol
Aggron
Bastiodon
Blastoise
Cacturne
Clefable
Cloyster
Dodrio
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Espeon
Exeggutor
Floatzel
Gardevoir
Glaceon
Golduck
Golem
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Houndoom
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Lanturn
Lickilicky
Luxray
Marowak
Meganium
Muk
Mismagius
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Octillery
Omastar
Poliwrath
Probopass
Rapidash
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Smeargle
Spiritomb
Swellow
Tentacruel
Toxicroak
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Walrein
Could you also check out the main tiers I have finished and see if I missed any Pokemon or doubled them up. Pokefarm's Battle Tier System (http://forum.pokefarm.com/showthread.php?t=2162)

[Nak]

Omastar
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Octillery



Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Octillery
Omastar



Sorry, I couldn't help myself. =3



Hmm... Is Flygon really not an OU? Its stats are pretty good, I think. Well if it's not, then I guess I'm unique =D

[BugCatcher6]

Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Octillery
Omastar

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. =3



Hmm... Is Flygon really not an OU? Its stats are pretty good, I think. Well if it's not, then I guess I'm unique =D

Fixed thank Nak. I will check around more on Flygon and see if I can find a reason for my it is not in OU. I think do to it's typing maybe.

[Nak]

All right, thanks and no problem. =)

[Shiny Lucario]

Fixed thank Nak. I will check around more on Flygon and see if I can find a reason for my it is not in OU. I think do to it's typing maybe.

I really don't think its the typing, as its only has two weaknesses. Its 400% weak to Ice though, which is huge, but a lot of OU pokemon are 400% weak to Ice. Also, its Ground type makes it immune to Electric attacks and Levitate makes it immune to Ground.

I'm not stating that Flygon is OU material but I don't think its not OU because of its types.

As for Arcanine, I think it deserves an OU spot because of the addition of Flare Blitz.

[WestCoastNinja]

i think arcanine is ou even without flare blitz. arnt its atk and sp atk the same? if not they are close enough that fire blast would be fine.

[Shiny Lucario]

Arcanine's base atk stat is 110. His base SpAtk stat is 100. So, yeah, they are close, but the addition of Flare Blitz just makes Arcanine so much better because Fire Blast misses waaay to much to be used effectively. Plus, a lot of Arcanines out there are Choice Banders, so now Arcanine has a stabbed physical move that is increased in power by Choice Band.

[BugCatcher6]

I already put Arcanine in the OU tier.

[Gamegeezer]

You guys must battle a lot.............all of the people i've played don't use a good amount of the pokemon on the OU list, yet they are there. I guess i need to be battling more.

[BugCatcher6]

We all cool on this?

Moderately-Used - MU Pokémon fell from BL and moved up from UU. They are not recommended by some to be for use outside of their tier.


Aggron
Bastiodon
Blastoise
Cacturne
Clefable
Cloyster
Dodrio
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Espeon
Exeggutor
Floatzel
Gardevoir
Glaceon
Golduck
Golem
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Houndoom
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Lanturn
Lickilicky
Luxray
Marowak
Meganium
Muk
Mismagius
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Octillery
Omastar
Poliwrath
Probopass
Rapidash
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Smeargle
Spiritomb
Swellow
Tentacruel
Toxicroak
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Vespiquen
Victreebel
WalreinCould you also check out the main tiers I have finished and see if I missed any Pokemon or doubled them up. Pokefarm's Battle Tier System (http://forum.pokefarm.com/showthread.php?t=2162)

[WestCoastNinja]

well absol is very powerful and and has ok speed. i say move it to BL.

[BugCatcher6]

Absol is now borderline on the main thread for tiers.

[BugCatcher6]

Under-Used - The UU tier designates Pokémon whose use is limited as they are not strong enough for general MU, or above, competition. UU monsters are recommended by some solely for UU type battles.
Altaria
Ampharos
Arbok
Azumarill
Banette
Bellossom
Butterfree
Camerupt
Carnivine
Cherrim
Crawdaunt
Electrode
Fearow
Flareon
Froslass
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Gorebyss
Granbull
Hitmontop
Honchkrow
Hypno
Kecleon
Linoone
Lopunny
Lumineon
Lunatone
Manectric
Mantine
Wormadam
Mr. Mime
Persian
Pikachu
Politoed
Primeape
Purugly
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Raticate
Relicanth
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Scyther
Seviper
Shedinja
Shuckle
Solrock
Stantler
Skuntank
Swalot
Wailord
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Vileplume
XatuAnyone see any Pokemon that are in another tier as well as this one. You can reference the other tiers here (http://forum.pokefarm.com/showthread.php?t=2162).

I think I see a few that already need to move.

Ampharos could be MU or BL.

The others possible, but I can't think right now. Maybe we could add the MU and UU together. Most other sites don't have a MU tier.

[BugCatcher6]

This is another UU tier I found.

Underused - Pokemon that will not perform well at all in competition.

Abomasnow
Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Arbok
Ariados
Azumarill
Banette
Bastiodon
Bellossom
Blastoise
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Charizard
Clefable
Cloyster
Corsola
Crawdaunt
Dewgong
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Electrode
Exploud
Fearow
Flareon
Froslass
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Glaceon
Glalie
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hariyama
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kecleon
Kingler
Lanturn
Linoone
Lunatone
Luxray
Magcargo
Manectric
Magcargo
Mantine
Masquerain
Meganium
Mightyena
Mr. Mime
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Noctowl
Octillery
Phione
Pikachu
Pinsir
Poliwrath
Politoed
Primeape
Purugly
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Rapidash
Raticate
Relicanth
Sableye
Sandslash
Scyther
Seaking
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Slowking
Solrock
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Swalot
Torkoal
Tropius
Ursaring
Venomoth
Venusaur
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Xatu
ZangooseI know it needs editing to match what we already did.

[WestCoastNinja]

i have seen azumarill in alot of competetive rmts. its ability doubles its atk and it also has high HP. i say it is at the most BL.

[BugCatcher6]

i have seen azumarill in alot of competetive rmts. its ability doubles its atk and it also has high HP. i say it is at the most BL.

Yeah I want to try something in a few days. Keep the information coming. I wanted to make PokeFarm's tier unique, but I think as long as we keep the Legendaries and the Ubers together, then maybe changing an entire tier system is not needed.

I should have more info in a few days.

[WestCoastNinja]

i just have 1 more thing to add. that second uu list isnt good at all. i saw BL pokes in there. alot of them.

[BugCatcher6]

Yeah that is the problem I keep running into. There is a different tier system on every Pokemon site you find. The first one I posted I removed one or two Pokemon and it was from PokemonCrater.com. The second one was from neoseeker and from what I have heard, neoseeker is a noobish site. Neoseeker also does not have an MU tier, it goes from BL to UU

[WestCoastNinja]

i actually never seen an MU list till now. i thought you invented it to make the tier unique.:D

[BugCatcher6]

I found this last night. Besides moving some Legendaries and making the uber tier a Legendary/Uber tier, I think it looks good.

Uber

This tier is for Pokemon with abnormally high base stats, huge movepools, and aren't allowed in OU and under competitive play.
Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys (All forms)
Dialga
Giratina
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Latias (regardless of Soul Dew)
Latios (Same as Latias)
Lugia
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Wobbuffett OU (Overused)

This tier is for Pokemon that have fairly high stats, and are common Pokemon to use when Ubers are banned.
OU Pokemon aren't allowed in UU/NU games.

This does NOT necessarily mean these Pokemon are often used; they simply refer to the Pokemon's power.
Aerodactyl
Ambipom
Azelf
Blissey
Breloom
Bronzong
Celebi
Cresselia
Donphan
Dragonite
Dusknoir
Electivire
Forretress
Gallade
Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heatran
Heracross
Hippowdon
Houndoom
Infernape
Jirachi
Jolteon
Lucario
Machamp
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Medicham
Mesprit
Metagross
Milotic
Porygon-Z
Raikou
Rhyperior
Salamence
Skarmory
Slaking
Slowbro
Snorlax
Spiritomb
Staraptor
Starmie
Suicune
Swampert
Tangrowth
Togekiss
Torterra
Tyranitar
Weavile
Weezing
Yanmega
Zapdos BL (Borderline)

This tier is used to tell which Pokemon are too strong for UU, and underpowered for OU.

BL is considered a faux (fake) tier, and does not have its own metagame.
Absol
Alakazam
Arcanine
Armaldo
Articuno
Blaziken
Cacturne
Chansey
Charizard
Claydol
Cloyster
Cradily
Crobat
Dodrio
Drapion
Dugtrio
Dusclops
Empoleon
Entei
Espeon
Exeggutor
Feraligatr
Floatzel
Flygon
Frosslass
Gardevoir
Glaceon
Hariyama
Honchkrow
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kadabra
Kangaskhan
Kingdra
Lapras
Leafeon
Lickilicky
Linoone
Ludicolo
Luxray
Magmortar
Mantine
Marowak (with Thick Club)
Miltank
Mismagius
Moltres
Nidoking
Ninetales
Ninjask
Pikachu (with Light Ball)
Pinsir
Poliwrath
Porygon2
Probopass
Raichu
Rampardos
Regice
Regigigas
Regirock
Registeel
Relicanth
Roserade
Sceptile
Scizor
Sharpedo
Shaymin
Slowking
Smeargle
Steelix
Swellow
Tauros
Tentacruel
Toxicroak
Typhlosion
Umbreon
Ursaring
Uxie
Vaporeon
Venusaur
Wynaut
Zangoose UU (Underused)

Underused is for Pokemon with so-so stats, abilities and movepool. These Pokemon have their own metagame and are allowed in OU and Uber.
Abomasnow
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Azumarril
Banette
Bastiodon
Bellossom
Bibarel
Blastoise
Camerupt
Carnivine
Cherrim
Clefable
Crawdaunt
Dewgong
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Electrode
Exploud
Fearow
Flareon
Gastrodon
Glalie
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Kabutops
Kingler
Lanturn
Lopunny
Lunatone
Manectric
Meganium
Mightyena
Mr. Mime
Muk
Nidoqueen
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Phione
Plusle
Politoed
Primeape
Purugly
Quagsire
Rapidash
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Seviper
Shedinja
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Solrock
Sudowoodo
Torkoal
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Wormadam [Ground]
Xatu NU (Neverused)

This tier is for Pokemon who are mediocre all in all, and are rarely seen in competitive play.
Arbok
Ariados
Beautifly
Beedrill
Butterfree
Castform
Chatot
Chimecho
Corsola
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dustox
Farfetch’d
Furrett
Girafarig
Illumise
Kecleon
Kricketune
Ledian
Lumineon
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerian
Mawile
Minun
Mothim
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelipper
Pidgeot
Qwilfish
Raticate
Seaking
Spinda
Stantler
Sunflora
Swalot
Tropius
Unown
Volbeat
Wigglytuff
Wormadam [Grass]
Wormadam [Steel]

[soccergurl22]

I think Abmosnow should be moved up. Mine has won many battles for me.:-D

[Jhamin]

[LIST]
Hmm... Is Flygon really not an OU? Its stats are pretty good, I think. Well if it's not, then I guess I'm unique =D

I don't think that there is actually anything wrong with Flygon. But even as good as his stats and moves are, they tend to be viewed as not quite as good as Salmance, Garchomp, or Dragonair. (Garchomp even has the same typing)

I usually see them listed as borderline, with Altaria being the only UU dragon.

[BugCatcher6]

I think Abmosnow should be moved up. Mine has won many battles for me.:-D

I am not trying to sound mean, but Abomasnow may have won you alot of battles, but that still does not move him up in tiers. The tiers are based off of the overall power of a Pokémon. Abomasnow does not have overwhelming stats, great weaknesses, and a move pool that is small. He does have 2 attacks with a base power of 120, but thats about it.

[juaco]

what about phione?

[belnumcree]

I've always seen Forretress on BL tiers. I think it's a great pokemon (Actually I plan on breeding them soon) but, just curious what would put it in OU? Hazards?

(If this was discussed earlier in this thread I appologize for overlooking it)

[Nak]

I've always seen Forretress on BL tiers. I think it's a great pokemon (Actually I plan on breeding them soon) but, just curious what would put it in OU? Hazards?

(If this was discussed earlier in this thread I appologize for overlooking it)I think so b/c can't it learn all hazard moves?

[belnumcree]

I think so b/c can't it learn all hazard moves?

Yeah, I thought that might be the case, but I've only seen it on BL before. :-D

[timmyeatsfood]

This is another UU tier I found.

Underused - Pokemon that will not perform well at all in competition.

that statement really ticks me off. plenty of those pokemon on that list could do nice in battle, and to say that they "won't perform well at all" is just ignorant. and i realize that you didn't write that, i was just expressing my distaste at this statement.

as for the most recent list of Uber, OU, BL, UU, and NU pokemon, i feel like it is the most official and accurate yet. however, i think that all legendaries should be in the uber category, despite their stats. i just think it gets rid of some of the originality in making a team. i'm sure there are some people who after finding out they could use some of their favorite legendaries, would decide to have a whole team of them.

[Shiny Lucario]

The pokemon are in UU for reason. They suck, espiecially:

*cough*Kingler*cough*

Lol, couldn't resist.

[timmyeatsfood]

The pokemon are in UU for reason. They suck, espiecially:

*cough*Kingler*cough*

Lol, couldn't resist.

grrrrr....

[Shiny Lucario]

Nice shiny Alakazam in your trainer card, wonder who you got it from?

Who could it be?

[WestCoastNinja]

kingler would be great in a trick room team.

[timmyeatsfood]

kingler would be great in a trick room team.

actually, my kingler's pretty fast.

i'm not a very experienced battler, so i don't really know what to compare its speed to....
the flash?

[Shiny Lucario]

You got a point there, since Kingler's attack is quite high, he would pwn in a Trick Room team.

And timmyeatsfood, Kinglers max speed stat is 249, which only really outruns the slow pokemon.

[timmyeatsfood]

You got a point there, since Kingler's attack is quite high, he would pwn in a Trick Room team.

And timmyeatsfood, Kinglers max speed stat is 249, which only really outruns the slow pokemon.

i see...
i stand corrected...

but he still pwns all of your pokemon. :lol:

[Shiny Lucario]

Yeah, fine, but thats all opinion. My pokemon pwn yours. Thats a fact :-D.

[BugCatcher6]

what about phione?

Phione is in the UU tier. Most pre-evolves are in lower tiers, yes even the Legendary pre-evolves.

[soccergurl22]

I am not trying to sound mean, but Abomasnow may have won you alot of battles, but that still does not move him up in tiers. The tiers are based off of the overall power of a Pokémon. Abomasnow does not have overwhelming stats, great weaknesses, and a move pool that is small. He does have 2 attacks with a base power of 120, but thats about it.


I understand. He still pwns all!!:-D

[BugCatcher6]

I understand. He still pwns all!!:-D

That is a good thing though. If everyone else thinks he is UU and you use him and win, that should make you feel great. I like using lower tiered Pokemon myself, but sometimes you have to go big.

[Jhamin]

I am not trying to sound mean, but Abomasnow may have won you alot of battles, but that still does not move him up in tiers. The tiers are based off of the overall power of a Pokémon. Abomasnow does not have overwhelming stats, great weaknesses, and a move pool that is small. He does have 2 attacks with a base power of 120, but thats about it.



My Abomasnow is one of my favorites, he even made it onto my trainer card, but I have to agree with the classification. Frosty is a one-trick pony that knows a very good trick. He rules in 2v2 battles where his partner can look out for him, but one on one Abomasnow is the posterboy for UnderUsed.

Abomasnow hits hard, and the free Hail on switch in (which never clears on it's own) has completely shortcircuted more than on focus band/endure team/weather team.

But at the end of the day he is weak against 7 of the 17 attack types, taking x4 from one of the most common types. His stats are all moderate, and his best two attacks each use a different stat (so no dumping all your EVs into one of them)

[BugCatcher6]

Please take the time to look over the final copy of the tier list found here (http://forum.pokefarm.com/showthread.php?p=29901#post29901). Let me know what everyone thinks either in this post or in a PM.

[BugCatcher6]

Are we happy with the battle tier I edited in the previous post? If no one sees any problems, I will close this thread and our tiers are complete. I mainly want to know if I missed any Pokemon or if I double posted a Pokemon. The tiers can be edited as needed.

[Justin345]

Lolz Then Ashs Pickachu Is A Uber @_@

[BugCatcher6]

I have updated the tier threads to be more in line with that of Smogon's tiers.

Please look over and see if there are any you feel need to be changed.

I think there could be, but there is a fine line between UU/BL/OU.

Take into account, Stats, Type, Weaknesses, Move Pool, and Ability.


I am wondering if the Pikachu should be in the NU, it's stats would say yes, but with a Light Ball attached, it would have some extra pop in it's attack.

[Guilo]

I really like that list, I had no clue what I was able to use in a UU/NU battle. Now to make a team out of pokemon in those tiers. However, I am not sure if many people would agree with me, but I noticed one thing that I didn't think was right. I have a pokemon in the UU tiers, and I have come VERY close to taking out Garchomp and have taken out Palkia with it. I will PM you with the name of the pokemon if you want Bug, but I would rather not state it out where others who I may battle soon can see it.

[BugCatcher6]

I really like that list, I had no clue what I was able to use in a UU/NU battle. Now to make a team out of pokemon in those tiers. However, I am not sure if many people would agree with me, but I noticed one thing that I didn't think was right. I have a pokemon in the UU tiers, and I have come VERY close to taking out Garchomp and have taken out Palkia with it. I will PM you with the name of the pokemon if you want Bug, but I would rather not state it out where others who I may battle soon can see it.

Being UU or NU does not mean it can't do some great things. It just means it is not as strong as others and it may not last.

I know a Beedrill with 1 Swords Dance can take down Tyranitor in 1 hit.

But now you have me curious as to what Pokemon can lay waste to Palkia he-he.

[Shiny Lucario]

I am wondering if the Pikachu should be in the NU, it's stats would say yes, but with a Light Ball attached, it would have some extra pop in it's attack.

I would say Pikachu without Light Ball deserves to be in NU, but with it in UU. The Light Ball brings Pikachu's maximum attack to 458 and its special attack to 436. And with a base speed of 90, I think thats a bit too good for NU, as only a couple of NU pokes are faster than it.

[belnumcree]

Much as I'd love to have Bibarel in NU, I'm afraid his ability "Simple" may make him a bit too strong. idk for sure

[Shiny Lucario]

Much as I'd love to have Bibarel in NU, I'm afraid his ability "Simple" may make him a bit too strong. idk for sure

I second that. Simple would make Bibarel to much of a beast in NU.

[S Tailor]

but i use my bibarel as a hm slave. i agree that bibarel is quite strong with simple but my hm slave is a beast. wow

[BugCatcher6]

Both of Bibarels are pretty wicked in the NU Tier.

When you are talking about Tiers, it is not enough that you have a beast of a Pokemon. If you look at the OU, it is pretty hard to take out those Pokemon in 1 hit or atleast doing it consecutively.

[WestCoastNinja]

Ok I looked at all the pokes in uu that I thought may be NU material and heres what I got.

Carnivine-Its atk is 5 points higher than the #1 NU. But it has a limited moveset to go with it. It is also slow which makes its weak defences even worse.

Cherrim-I have no idea why this is UU. An even worse moveset than Carnavine and worse stats.

Mightyena-This poke is not as strong as the #1 in atk. It is also slow with bad hp/defences. Not really a great moveset either.

Thats all I noticed.

[BugCatcher6]

Ok I looked at all the pokes in uu that I thought may be NU material and heres what I got.

Carnivine-Its atk is 5 points higher than the #1 NU. But it has a limited moveset to go with it. It is also slow which makes its weak defences even worse.

Cherrim-I have no idea why this is UU. An even worse moveset than Carnavine and worse stats.

Mightyena-This poke is not as strong as the #1 in atk. It is also slow with bad hp/defences. Not really a great moveset either.

Thats all I noticed.

Good info. I had a list made up in the league thread. I was just now going threw the list to sort out abilities and move pools.

Carnivine I had my worries with, but I his Speed would be at the bottom. ATK is #1, and the rest would be in the top 10 or so.

I agree with those 3 being moved down.

On the current NU Tier these 3 would rank

Carnivine
Total Stat - 454 - 7th
HP - 74 - 10th
ATK - 100 - 1st
DEF - 72 - 14th
SP.ATK - 90 - 6th
SP.DEF - 72 - 26th
SPD - 46 - 39th
Cherrim
Total Stat - 450 - 8th
HP - 70 - 14th
ATK - 60 - 31th
DEF - 70 - 17th
SP.ATK - 87 - 8th
SP.DEF - 78 - 22nd
SPD - 85 - 10th
Mightyena
Total Stat - 420 - 22nd
HP - 70 - 18th
ATK - 90 - 8th
DEF - 70 - 21st
SP.ATK - 60 - 32nd
SP.DEF - 60 - 36th
SPD - 70 - 23rdAnyone have a problem with moving them down a Tier?

[belnumcree]

I don't have a problem with it.

[WestCoastNinja]

I have taken a look at Lunatone and Solrock. They're stats look identical to other NU pokes I have seen so I vote drop them down.

EDIT: Also checked out Sableye and Venemoth. Sable is NU for sure. It has the best type coverage in the game but its stats and moves are not great. Venemoth has good moves and a high sp atk/spd but I think all the flying types will give it competition.

[BugCatcher6]

I really don't have a problem with adding any of them, but for the league I would like to stay with the original 46 and save any new ones for the following seasons draft.

I am not convinced that the ones mention would fit in the NU tier. Smogon has gone and added NU and UU together, thus creating a strong group and a weak group, so the NU would still be there.

I want to keep it Pokemon that people would never use. All of the ones mentioned would be at the top of the list for most of all the stats. Most are slow, but with that Sudowoodo would be a fit. Noctowl would also be within the total stat range.

Like I said I would hate to add Pokemon to the NU tier and have them overshadow the rest and thus create what you see in the Gyms, the top Pokemon and forget the rest.

[BugCatcher6]

I am not trying to keep any changes from being made to the Tiers. I am just wanting to make sure that it does not completely overpower a tier. I would be just as picky with moving a Pokemon from the BL Tier to the OU Tier.

Problem being is with reading Smogon and Serebii, they have alot of the ones mentioned as UU because they are a bit to strong for NU. Not saying they would always dominate a NU Pokemon, but for the reasons of Abilities, Move Pool, Stats, and Weaknesses, they are combined stronger then others.

Even Mightyena, weak to only Fight and Bug attacks. Now their are alot of Bug attacks in the NU Tier, but a Toxic Orb holding Mightyena would have it's Speed increased by 50%, Serebii says Speed is Doubled and Smogon says increased 50%.

Howl + Toxic Orb = ATK Boost 1 stage and 50% more Speed and the Fang of your choice = Sweep.

I would feel better once I get my DS back and then maybe do some testing in game with any possible changes. Take a few Pokemon from the NU and take some of the ones that could change and test battle. No EVs kinda battles.

I have made a note to do some testing and research on the following Pokémon
Carnivine
Cherrim
Lunatone
Mightyena
Sableye
Solrock
VenomothI will write up what I find with each and maybe we can argue er discuss more in detail he-he.

Also had to ask about Sudowoodo? 410 Total Stats with 100 base ATK and 115 base DEF. Abilities really don't do much for it besides take away recoil or stop it from being hit with a OHKO move. Move Pool is not bad, but it is weak to Water, Grass, Fight, Ground, and Steel.

Water and Grass are not that hard to find in NU, no STABBED Fight or Ground, and only one Steel STAB. Which the Water and Grass you can figure on being Special Attacks and Sudowoodo's base SP.DEF is 65.

Also in the league thread someone mentioned adding Hitmontop to the NU. Stating poor move pool. With it's low base HP it is fairly frail, but he has 95 base DEF and 110 base SP.DEF with 95 base ATK and 70 base SPD. His weaknesses would be Flying and Psychic, but with those Defenses I think maybe to overpowering. With Intimidate and Technician as his abilities, I could see him being a beast. Intimidate would be a killer ability in the NU Tier. Also using Technician with Triple Kick, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch or even a Quick Attack or Vacuum Wave could be deadly.

[WestCoastNinja]

Sudowoodo is one of the pokes I checked and it seemed to be a little too good. It has 2 stats at 100+. But now that you mention it its slowness and many weakness's are a bad combination. Maybe it could be NU.

[S Tailor]

sudowoodo isnt that weak.

[BugCatcher6]

sudowoodo isnt that weak.

Sudowoodo Ranking:

Sudowoodo
Total Stat - 410 - 25th
HP - 70 - 17th
ATK - 100 - 1st
DEF - 115 - 2nd
SP.ATK - 30 - 47th/last
SP.DEF - 65 - 32nd
SPD - 30 - 46thOnly thing bothering me is, is the combo of the high DEF and ATK making him to strong?, But like I said. with being weak to Water and Grass, you can expect to see alot of Special Attacks when he is in.

We could do this and I just thought of it. Battle Calculator.


Sudowoodo(Life Orb) with 31 / x / 31 / x / 31 / x IVs & 252 EVs in DEF.
Vs.
Sunflora(Choice Scarf) with x / x / x / 31 / x / x IVs & 252 EVs in SP.ATK.

Sunflora uses Energy Ball
Energy Ball does 171 - 201 Damage.


At level 50 with 31 IVs in HP and even 252 EVs in HP would put Sudowoodo at 177 total HP and KO'd.



Sudowoodo(Life Orb) with 31 / x / 31 / x / 31 / x IVs & 252 EVs in DEF.
Vs.
Pelipper(Choice Specs) with x / x / x / 31 / x / x IVs & 252 EVs in SP.ATK.

Pelipper uses Surf
Surf does 266-312 Damage.


Again Poor Sudowoodo.

There are alot of other things to figure into this battle, so more testing needs to be done.

[Nak]

I think Shuckle should be moved up to BL.

Oh, and Wailord needs to be in NU. I know it has A LOT of HP and a 90 base for Atk. and Sp. Atk., but because of its horrendous Speed and Defenses, one STABbed T-bolt or Energy Ball OHKO's it before it can even use Rest.

[BugCatcher6]

Case Study Carnivine:



Carnivine

Total Stat - 454


HP - 74


ATK - 100


DEF - 72


SP.ATK - 90


SP.DEF - 72


SPD - 46


Level 50
Carnivine(Leftovers) with 31 / x / 31 / x / 31 / x IVs & 252 HP EVS / 252 DEF EVs / 252 SP.DEF EVs.
Vs.
Magcargo(Choice Specs) with x / x / x / 31 / x / x IVs & 252 EVs in SP.ATK

Magcargo uses Flamethrower
Flamethrower does 178-210 Damage
Carnivine has Max HP 181

Carnivine(Leftovers) with 31 / x / 31 / x / 31 / x IVs & 252 HP EVS / 252 DEF EVs / 252 SP.DEF EVs
Vs.
Raticate(Flame Orb) with x / 31 / x / 31 / x / x IVs & 252 EVs in ATK

Raticate uses Flame Wheel
Flame Wheel does 77-91 Damage
Carnivine has Max HP 181



Carnivine(Leftovers) with 31 / x / 31 / x / 31 / x IVs & 252 HP EVS / 252 DEF EVs / 252 SP.DEF EVs
Vs.
Delibird(Focus Sash) with x / 31 / x / 31 / x / x IVs & 252 EVs in SP.ATK

Delibird uses Ice Beam
Ice Beam does 105-124
Carnivine has Max HP 181

Carnivine(Leftovers) with 31 / x / 31 / x / 31 / x IVs & 252 HP EVS / 252 DEF EVs / 252 SP.DEF EVs
Vs.
Delibird(Choice Specs) with x / 31 / x / 31 / x / x IVs & 252 EVs in SP.ATK

Delibird uses Ice Beam
Ice Beam does 158-186
Carnivine has Max HP 181

Carnivine Attacks

Lumineon(Leftovers) with 31 / x / 31 / x / 31 / x IVs & 252 HP EVS / 252 DEF EVs
Vs.
Carnivine(Life Orb) with x / 31 / x / 31 / x / x IVs & 252 EVs in ATK

Carnivine uses Power Whip
Power Whip does 215-253 Damage
Lumineon has MAX HP 176

Luvdisc(Leftovers) with 31 / x / 31 / x / 31 / x IVs & 252 HP EVS / 252 DEF EVs
Vs.
Carnivine(Life Orb) with x / 31 / x / 31 / x / x IVs & 252 EVs in ATK

Carnivine uses Power Whip
Power Whip does 256-302 Damage
Luvdisc has MAX HP 150


My Thoughts


These damages were done with a battle calculator. Not taking attack turn in order or any stat boost moves. Each attack figured in the best (SP.) ATK and (SP.) DEF IVs and EVs. Using what is believed the best item to get the most damage for the attacks.

Also Power Whip is Carnivine's strongest Physical Attack move, but it's accuracy is only 85%

What I see is in the best possible outcome, Carnivine could survive 1 attack and he could OHKO all 3 Water Types in the NU Tier.

The best chance to drop Carnivine in 1 hit would be for a Magcargo to get a Critical Hit, but that is with perfect stats, EVs, and Natures. So it would be more likely to score a OHKO with Magcargo, since Carvinine would be built to attack and rarely built for defense.

This is a toss up. Carnivine would have a total of 30 possible STABBED counters, counting combo types as separate Pokémon. With his STABBED Grass he would be Super Effective to 3 Pokémon.

This test only dealt with Fire and Ice Attacks, I did not test Flying, Poison, or Bug. The potential for Carnivine to see alot more damage from say, Qwilfish, Parasect, Mothim, and Ariados could be dangerous for Carnivine.

I am still on edge about this Pokémon. I think Carnivine could be beat around even in the NU Tier. But his defenses could keep him safe for a hit or 2. Giving him ample room for switch ins. His move pool is very limited, so his sweeper power would be limited.

Based on what I have simulated, I think he could benefit in the NU Tier, but really only against Water Types, which there are more Water Types in UU and BL. I am still undecided. I think he would not overpower the NU Tier, but he could actually be overpowered with his lack of chances to attack Water Types. With the lack of Ground and Rock Types, Magcargo is Fire/Rock so he does not take Super Effective damage from Grass, could leave Carnivine as a specialist Pokémon.

[Nak]

...What is up with you and cetering everything lately? XD jk

Anyway, I think Carnivine should be in the NU tier b/f of its limited movepool as well. Even if Magcargo is the only Fire-type in the NU tier, there are a lot of speedy Bug-types that can finish him off.

[BugCatcher6]

...What is up with you and cetering everything lately? XD jk

Anyway, I think Carnivine should be in the NU tier b/f of its limited movepool as well. Even if Magcargo is the only Fire-type in the NU tier, there are a lot of speedy Bug-types that can finish him off.

I want a league started and I will do all the research possible to get it running.

One more note, I just came across an old Shoddy Battle Tier. They split the Tiers in an odd Tier selection.

OU -> OP
UU -> UP
NU -> NP
UU/BL -> Uber UP

The only ones I care about are the ones they have listed in the NU ->NP Tier.

Pokemon that are not listed in our NU Tier that they do have listed are,

Flareon
Noctowl
Bellossom
Shuckle
Mantine
Mightyena
Shedinja
Torkoal
Seviper
Whiscash
Bastiodon
Cherrim
CarnivineThe ones in bold I can kinda agree with. That is why I am going to do the research and have votes on Pokemon before moving them. I don't want to bring a Pokemon down to the NU Tier only to have it dominate. It may el stinko in the UU Tier, but it will not be el magnifico in the NU Tier.

I want to keep the battles more determined by the breeding and tactics of the trainer, not by 3 or 4 dominant Pokemon.

So please vote on Carnivine. Look at WestCoastNinja's post and research. Look at my simulated battles. Vote based on the info given.

[WestCoastNinja]

Your explanation on Mightyena's strategy makes me sure that he would dominate in NU. So I think it should stay UU. I want Noctowl NU for sure! I've been dying to use mine. But it's high hp and sp def might make it a little too good.

[BugCatcher6]

I will try to do a research page on any and all possible changes, then put a poll up.

I just found this NU Tier on legendarypokemon.com.

Here are the Pokemon not on our list.

Bibarel
Cherrim
Glalie
Noctowl
Sudowoodo
VenomothAgain bold ones mean I kinda agree.

I am going to go back threw the last couple of pages of this newest discussion and make a list of Pokemon needing a close look at.

I know other sites make it a point to only worry about the upper tier Pokemon, but I am pretty sure members here have noticed we don't care what other sites are doing. As a breeding site we care about breeding all Pokemon and taking advantage of what they have to offer. My goal is to start a league and a monthly tournament with NU Pokemon and let them shine.

I am dead serious about this league. Don't get me wrong I love our Gym system, but what happens after the badges and the Elite 4? You retire to the farm and graze beside a Miltank? I am not saying this league will replace the Gyms, I don't want that to happen. I am just saying at some point I will resign from my Gym and pass it on to a new trainer. I never planned on being a Gym Leader this long. Heck before being a Gym Leader, battling was not even a thought for me. I have grown to love the thrill you get from a battle, but I have also grown tired of seeing the same Pokemon battle after battle. I think it is time for other Pokemon to have their time to shine.

[BugCatcher6]

A bit more research on Carnivine. I wonder would he be to strong as a SubSeeder? Would him using Swords Dance make him to strong?

Carnivine comes in, you switch to say Parasect, that is a free Swords Dance. Next round Parasect attacks and Carnivine has a small chance to survive or maybe Focus Sash. Carnivine could then maybe knockout Parasect, but would likely faint the next round.

Which is all a Speed issue. I guess if a move is made and it is later found out that Carnivine is to strong, changes can be made.

Trial and error.

[S Tailor]

scarf it or band it for maximum effect

[BugCatcher6]

scarf it or band it for maximum effect

Yes, but do you think it would be to strong to move down to the NU Tier is what the question was.

[belnumcree]

Can we move Umbreon to NU? Pretty Please. :D lol j/k

Seriously though, it's been mentioned a couple of times about using NFE in NU. Where do we stand on that?

[BugCatcher6]

Can we move Umbreon to NU? Pretty Please. :D lol j/k

Seriously though, it's been mentioned a couple of times about using NFE in NU. Where do we stand on that?

Last I heard about it, someone mentioned That Final Moves, like starters with the happiness moves could be to strong. I was thinking of looking into all pre-evolves like Ekans, since Arbok is NU so would Ekans. The only problem there is Pikachu with Light Ball is UU and without he would be NU. So a Pikachu would have to be inspected after battles.

I have 46 already in on the website, adding more is not big deal. Just changing some numbers and the order a bit. I have to work on the tables a bit more, I really don't like the way they look. They are to huge and a lot of scrolling. If I could make tables with the divisions I want, like Serebii's Top 100, their menu on the left and right and the chart in the middle, I would like it a bit more. I just stink at tables.

[belnumcree]

I know you use notepad, but if I can find the HTML editor I used to use I'll send you a link. It makes doing tables a breeze. :D

[BugCatcher6]

I know you use notepad, but if I can find the HTML editor I used to use I'll send you a link. It makes doing tables a breeze. :D

I looked at Arachnophilia. I need to upgrade to something so I can make more visually stimulating pages. I want a nice menu bar and tables or maybe looking up some CSS tutorials.

I guess I never went past basic HTML he-he.

[BugCatcher6]

Only 8 votes? Is it that nobody cares who the Pokemon are? Am I the only one who puts a lot of research into Pokemon? Well I know WCN and a few others research this stuff. I am not content with just saying hmm I need a Pokemon, what is everybody else using.

Maybe I am dragging this league idea out to much. Worrying more about keeping the battles close and not enough about getting people to sign on.

Seriously I believe I had like 9 rules, I am sure during the season rules will need to be made to change something overpowering.

I could do 1 of 2 things. 1, I could say the heck with any other Pokemon and go with the list I have. 2, I could just do my own research and decide on who else can be added and who is out.

Please don't take this as Buzz going on a rant. I am a little bit irked that I am doing tons of research for a league that may never happen. Truthfully all I see from previous tournaments and events, maybe about 5 or 6 people will show up consistently.

[WestCoastNinja]

Commiting to only one battle a week is easy for even the most busy person. Maybe it is time that you make a sign up thread or something.

[BugCatcher6]

Well we could look at it like this.

League Checklist:
League Name:
Kinda -
International NU Pokémon League - INPL
Major League Pokémon - MLP
Rules:
Check - 9 Rules
Pokémon List:
Check 46 Pokémon
Teams:
None
So we have a set of 9 basic rules. We have a current list of 46 Pokémon, more can be added during the next seasons draft. So maybe it is time to get the teams setup and then a start date set up. Start date will give enough time to build a team.

[pikachu-rocks]

hold on a sec. phione's stats are pretty low and it does not learn good moves, nor can it evolve into manaphy. So phiones should be allowed

[BugCatcher6]

hold on a sec. phione's stats are pretty low and it does not learn good moves, nor can it evolve into manaphy. So phiones should be allowed

Phione is a Legendary no matter what the stats are, so therefore it is not allowed as described by the PokéFarm Gym system rules.