Poké Academy's Battle Tier Discussion

[BugCatcher6]

I have received a few PMs saying why is this Pokemon not in this tier or that tier. The tiers were created by looking at different sites and putting together the most comment results.

To change any of these takes a lot of testing. PMing me telling me that Pokémon X should be in the OU tier because you think it is awesome and you win with it, is not going to get it moved. PMing me telling me Pokémon U should be moved to the OU tier because it has stats like X, Y, & Z, won't get the Pokémon moved. There are more reasons that a Pokémon gets put into certain tiers then it's stats or coolness. Typing plays a big part, as well as it's move pool. Also you have to look at it's weaknesses and how many Pokémon can take advantage of it.

Let's look at a BL tier Pokémon that is awesome, but not enough to be OU.

Arcanine: HP 90 / ATK 110 / DEF 80 / SP.ATK 100 / SP.DEF 80 / SPD 95

Very good stats, but why would it be BL and not OU?

It has 2 good abilities, Flash Fire and Intimidate, which Intimidate is the better of the 2 for more common battles.

Weakness, Water, Ground, and Rock.

Only 3, but look at them. Stealth Rock will make it hard to switch Arcanine in. Earthquake, heck everyone competitive has atleast 2 Pokémon that uses Earthquake. There are also a lot of bulky Water types that will have little trouble with Arcanine.

Also Arcanine has a very limited move pool. The only big move Arcanine received with the D/P addition was Flare Blitz. It just does not have the coverage that most OU tier Pokémon have. But wait Arcanine has Thunder Fang and can stop his Water weakness. True, but you will most likely see Earthquake anyway, since Arcanine really does not have an attack to counter Ground types.

[Babael]

Yeah, unless you have HP Grass or Ice, Arcanine will always have limited type coverage and will be easily walled by Swampert.

[belnumcree]

You could run a special set w/ Sunny Day or Sunny Day support, and Arcanine has access to Solar Beam. :twisted:

[Babael]

You could run a special set w/ Sunny Day or Sunny Day support, and Arcanine has access to Solar Beam. :twisted:

Well that semi-fixes that problem provided that the sun is out, lol. *plots*

[BugCatcher6]

With Arcanine fainting on the turn he uses Sunny Day? To survive most water attacks Arcanine would need to EV HP, DEF, & SP.DEF. So that would let his ATK, SP.ATK, and SPD hurting. Arcanine could be a defensive or an attacker, both I don't think would be in a battle for very long.

Or a berry to weaken damage.

[Death By Bronzong]

A lot of people think of Arcanine as an OU just because of the lack of good sweeping fire types. It really should be BL, as its movepool is very limited, among other problems.

[belnumcree]

With Arcanine fainting on the turn he uses Sunny Day? To survive most water attacks Arcanine would need to EV HP, DEF, & SP.DEF. So that would let his ATK, SP.ATK, and SPD hurting. Arcanine could be a defensive or an attacker, both I don't think would be in a battle for very long.

Or a berry to weaken damage.

That's why I said w/ support. I don't think I'd attempt to Sunny Day with a Surf coming. lol You can carry it on him and if your in against something that can't take Arcanine, Sunny day on the switch.

BTW does anyone know how much Sunny Day weakens Water?



A lot of people think of Arcanine as an OU just because of the lack of good sweeping fire types. It really should be BL, as its movepool is very limited, among other problems.

It's BL everywhere I've seen it. :D

[BugCatcher6]

BTW does anyone know how much Sunny Day weakens Water?

Water Type move's Base Power is decreased by 50%

[Death By Bronzong]

It's BL everywhere I've seen it. :D

That's because the lot of people aren't the ones who make tier lists. I was referring more to the people who are PMing Buzz telling him to put certain pokemon (such as Arcanine) in OU.

[BugCatcher6]

Well I don't want to single anyone out, but I will post the Pokémon they said should be OU instead of BL.

It was Umbreon and the reason was because he has I forget the stats but high HP, DEF, and SP.DEF.

Umbreon is awesome, but the game is attack heavy anymore and Umbreon cannot take the beating that Blissey, Skarmory, or Snorlax can take.

[belnumcree]

Water Type move's Base Power is decreased by 50%
.... Awesome. :D Just ran a calc, w/ Sunny Day out No HP/Def/SpDef Arcanine vs Max Att/Sp Att Waterfall/Surf from Gyarados, Kingdra, and Omastar can't OHKO... Flash is glad to hear it. :-D Of course that doesn't stop EQ. lol



That's because the lot of people aren't the ones who make tier lists. I was referring more to the people who are PMing Buzz telling him to put certain pokemon (such as Arcanine) in OU.

Sorry bout that. I miss understood. :-D


Well I don't want to single anyone out, but I will post the Pokémon they said should be OU instead of BL.

It was Umbreon and the reason was because he has I forget the stats but high HP, DEF, and SP.DEF.

Umbreon is awesome, but the game is attack heavy anymore and Umbreon cannot take the beating that Blissey, Skarmory, or Snorlax can take.

Can't argue with that. Umbreon is awesome. lol Like Buzz said it's outshone by other Defensive pokemon. That's not to say it's not great if used properly with the right support. :-D

[BugCatcher6]

Can't argue with that. Umbreon is awesome. lol Like Buzz said it's outshone by other Defensive pokemon. That's not to say it's not great if used properly with the right support. :-D

The best Umbreon I ever seen was Luna. But if I remember she started out a bit weaker until you added was it Protect? Umbreon is awesome. But I also remember that I took a few down with 2 hits from My Lanturn's Signal Beam. So a Bug and STAB attack would do some big damage to it.

[belnumcree]

The best Umbreon I ever seen was Luna. But if I remember she started out a bit weaker until you added was it Protect? Umbreon is awesome. But I also remember that I took a few down with 2 hits from My Lanturn's Signal Beam. So a Bug and STAB attack would do some big damage to it.

You haven't had the opportunity to see the newer builds. :twisted: lol I've been playing with different movesets recently. Though wish/protect/toxic/----- is still classic. :-D

[BugCatcher6]

You haven't had the opportunity to see the newer builds. :twisted: lol I've been playing with different movesets recently. Though wish/protect/toxic/----- is still classic. :-D

Taunt if you got it he-he. Keeps my Miltank from healing. I hate that. BUt I still feel that with the move pool of any Eevee, you will never see one in the OU tier. Well besides Vaporeon, why is she there he-he.

[belnumcree]

Taunt if you got it he-he. Keeps my Miltank from healing. I hate that. BUt I still feel that with the move pool of any Eevee, you will never see one in the OU tier. Well besides Vaporeon, why is she there he-he.

Cause Vaporeon is a BEAST. lol Don't forget Jolteon. :wink:

[BugCatcher6]

Cause Vaporeon is a BEAST. lol Don't forget Jolteon. :wink:

I even looked at the tier list before righting that he-he. Jolteon is not a very good OU Pokemon either. Speed and opportunity.

[belnumcree]

I even looked at the tier list before righting that he-he. Jolteon is not a very good OU Pokemon either. Speed and opportunity.

Ok, that's not funny. I've had Jolteons rip me apart on occasion. Ok yeah it was funny. lol :-D

[BugCatcher6]

Ok, that's not funny. I've had Jolteons rip me apart on occasion. Ok yeah it was funny. lol :-D

He is hard to switch in though. Almost everything has Earthquake anymore he-he.

[belnumcree]

He is hard to switch in though. Almost everything has Earthquake anymore he-he.

I usually see them as leads. Totally messes up lots of common leads. :twisted:

[Death By Bronzong]

I usually see them as leads. Totally messes up lots of common leads. :twisted:

I fought a jolteon who was facing a partial team of mine. It was my opponent's lead. He used substitute four times, a petaya berry (+sp. atk) took effect, and i got swept.

[Fautor Animus]

Jolteon has a base 130 speed, and while it has a limited movepool, it's good at what it does. It's very difficult to counter Jolteon quickly and effectively. For the sub-set, you may need a really strong Double hit or something, haha!

[Babael]

Jolteon has a base 130 speed, and while it has a limited movepool, it's good at what it does. It's very difficult to counter Jolteon quickly and effectively. For the sub-set, you may need a really strong Double hit or something, haha!

Jolteon is awesome, and since I actually take the time for HP breeding, my Jolteon's type coverage is actually pretty decent. I've have swept on several occasions with Jolteon.*grins*

[BugCatcher6]

I have been doing some reading over on Smogon about tiers. I found that tiers are based on popularity of the Pokemon and not really their stats. I just naturally assumed that an OU Pokemon had superior stats, abilities, and traits. Pokemon in the OU tier are based off of Pokemon used on Shoddy at or above 75% of the time.

I am wondering if we built our own tiers based off of stats, abilities, weaknesses, resist, traits, and move pool, would that make a difference?

As it stands right now our tiers are based off of Smogon, Shoddy, and a few other sites. Changing the tiers could create a new metagame that is not used on this site currently. Right now we have Gyms with no restrictions other then no Legendaries. Even with Legendaries being ranked from UU to Uber. Coming up with 5 or more new tiers would not be that hard, but testing to make sure each Pokemon is assigned correctly would be. If we went by total base stats, that could end up making things uneven based on weaknesses. Although total base stats could be a starting point.

Anyone else have any ideas? Reading the threads at Smogon, I have to admit I feel completely dumb and finding myself trying to figure out what they are talking about. There reasoning and thinking of the game is on another level then I know. I don't know if they are looking at Pokemon as a war and I am looking at it as a war simulator.

[BugCatcher6]

One thing I have notice is that Smogon's tiers are fluid. They can change monthly. I am trying to find away to make a solid tier listing. Based on actual power of the Pokemon and not it's popularity. Actual power would not change unless move pool, base stats, or evolutions changed.


I have some ideas for making new tiers. I am just curious if anyone else has any ideas for testing and building new tiers?

[Death By Bronzong]

Well, you could use the total base stats of each pokemon as a starting point, then, based on movepool, ability, and overall effectiveness in battle (assuming optimal IVs), shuffle them around.

[BugCatcher6]

What if at firs we would separate them all by Types. Then create a sudo tier system from their Types. Like as an example, Heracross, Pinsir, Beedrill, Vespiquen. Based on stats you would rank them Heracross OU, Vespiquen BL, Pinsir UU, and Beedrill NU. Then go into testing we could find Heracross OU, Vespiquen UU, Pinsir UU, and Beedrill NU. Vespiquen could drop to UU since her stats are nice, but move pool and weaknesses hurt her badly.


Heck we could ever take the current tiers as they are and create something like wrestling matches. Like I am doing with the NFE in the Poké Academy. Take one Pokemon and put it against a Pokemon that based on types it should be super effective against and another it would be weak to. It would be a control environment and allow to test it in multiple areas it could be used for.

[Fautor Animus]

You mean run a bunch of damage calculations? I do that constantly for battles. It helps me decide ev spreads for my walls a lot.

[Death By Bronzong]

Well, I wouldn't even use the terms OU, UU, and NU, because they suggest that frequency of usage plays into the classification.

[BugCatcher6]

I would not use damage calculators. I would use real battles and try to put each Pokemon threw real battle scenarios.

As real as Pokemon can get he-he.

[Jhamin]

Well, I wouldn't even use the terms OU, UU, and NU, because they suggest that frequency of usage plays into the classification.


This is actually an excellent point. If we are going to have our own tiers rather than following someone elses, there is nothing wrong with changing the naming convention.

[BugCatcher6]

This is actually an excellent point. If we are going to have our own tiers rather than following someone elses, there is nothing wrong with changing the naming convention.


Yeah I wanted to come up with new tiers that would reflect the power levels of the Pokemon in each tier or just something nicer he-he.

[Jhamin]

To continue a fighting metaphor we could go with:

Ultra Heavy Weight - Ubers
Heavy Weight - Currently most of the OU
Middle weight - Currently most of BL
Welter Weight - Currently UU
Feather Weight - Currently NU

[BugCatcher6]

To continue a fighting metaphor we could go with:

Ultra Heavy Weight - Ubers
Heavy Weight - Currently most of the OU
Middle weight - Currently most of BL
Welter Weight - Currently UU
Feather Weight - Currently NU

That sounds cool. I am partial to Cruiser Weight, wrestling fan he-he.