The Great Debate

[BugCatcher6]

No this has nothing to do with politics, well maybe Poké Politics.

I have seen a lot of teams throughout the forum in my time here. Some people that are hardcore OU driven machines, some that like a Pokémon so much that they will just have it on their team, others that like to mix it up a bit, and some that are dedicated to the mediocre of the Poké World.

No matter what group you find yourself in you should be proud of what you use, there are no wrong or right group to be in. Using six OU Pokémon does not make you any less skilled then someone winning with six Pokémon mixed from different tiers.

So why am I writing this? I have been wrestling with my own demons for making my teams. I like mostly NU/UU Pokémon, but I will mix in some OU. At the same time I know I could not take on the league with my Chrysalis Gym team. Just not going to happen that I can beat the gym leaders without some major muscle.

So I have been doing some research and found some statistics of the most used Pokémon.

In the Standard metagame the top 6 lead Pokémon.


Bronzor (17218 leads)
Gengar (11189 leads)
Tyranitar (10515 leads)
Gyarados (9346 leads)
Ninjask (6899 leads)
Azelf (6769 leads)

As you can see the gap between first and second is huge, about the same as the gap from second to sixth.

Next comes the top 6 most used Pokémon in the Standard metagame.


Garchomp (54486271 points)
Gengar (44895630 points)
Blissey (43662002 points)
Gyarados (40781829 points)
Tyranitar (40712470 points)
Bronzong (38561213 points)

Wow only two new ones not in the most used leads category. All of these statistics were taken from Shoddy and their battle usage. They have a total of 322 Pokémon ranked in the lead usage, 428 Pokémon ranked in the unweighted usage, and 426 Pokémon ranked for thw eighted usage.

That does not even count the Ubers, which is even stranger some of the Pokémon used in the Uber Metagame. Roserade ranks #11 in the Uber Metagame for leads, the highest ranking Non-Legendary Pokémon, which also ranks #10 in the Standard Metagame Leads category.

Again what was my whole point here? Oh with Shoddy being a hardcore battle site and system, you can expect to see more teams being filled with OU and very rarely will you see a NU, UU, or even a NFE.

So what does everyone else think about the OU Vs. everything else debate?

My feelings overall are, you should use what you like and forget about wins/losses and play for fun. That is something I loss when I started getting further in as the Beacon Gym Leader. It was expected of me to be a great battler. I never cared about being a great battler, but at some point I lost that and needed to find my way back. So now there is the Chrysalis Gym. I put myself in a place that I knew I would not win that often. It is about the fun of battling again. I have heard from some that the Chrysalis Gym was a way for me to show how superior my battling was compared to others. I can beat you with NU/UU Pokémon. That is so not even close to what I wanted to do.

I would not even put myself in the same league as Babael, WestCoastNinja, and FatherGoblin. The three greatest battlers I have ever faced. There are many other great battlers, but I would still not put me in their league. I am an old farmer that can remember weaknesses, moves, and stats. I can get Pokémon to play well together. I am not an elite battler, nor would I want to be one. Babael, WestCoastNinja, and FatherGoblin scare me and I would run for cover before battling them. Although I do have a win over WestCoastNinja and the chances of potentially beating Babael or FatherGoblin does keep me wondering if I should battle them.

Being afraid of losing or not having confidence in your skills is no reason not to atleast try. Trying never hurts, sitting and wondering what if is far worse. So you lose a battle if you try, not trying and you could lose a piece of yourself.

I never want to sit and wonder what if.

[revelp8]

buzz. keep trying and never give up! thats the whole point of the game really. and the anime, the manga, and well, the franchise. ^.^ its all about having fun, but some of the time, you get a few folks sucking the fun out of the game. but thats expected, you get a few hardcore peeps. but other than that, we're all having fun here right?

i know i did. having just done a farm event myself, very strenuous, but the results were awesome.

and battling too. its a rush, but its also fun, you get to see pokes used differently...some of the time.

[BugCatcher6]

buzz. keep trying and never give up! thats the whole point of the game really. and the anime, the manga, and well, the franchise. ^.^ its all about having fun, but some of the time, you get a few folks sucking the fun out of the game. but thats expected, you get a few hardcore peeps. but other than that, we're all having fun here right?

i know i did. having just done a farm event myself, very strenuous, but the results were awesome.

and battling too. its a rush, but its also fun, you get to see pokes used differently...some of the time.

That was what I wanted to see. The end part of my rant kinda made it seem like a pity me type thread. I am not looking for pity. I am comfortable in knowing there are people better at battling. My purpose was that at some point I got a bit hardcore into it and lost the fun. I have gotten that back now with the Chrysalis Gym.

I was posting Shoddy info to see what people thought of how it ranks the Pokémon. Truthfully it must be a hardcore battling thing, because out of the tops 6 leads, I have seen 3 of them used as leads on numerous occasions and the other 3 I have never seen as a lead.

Out of the top 6 most used, I have seen one Blissey in my time at as a gym leader. Ironically it was in the Chrysalis Gym he-he.

I am not getting some of the rankings, as I have not seen a lot of them in battle. I wonder if I should post the entire list?

[nana nettie]

I can say, when I've had a battle as the gym assistant, I've seen a lot of OU's. If they only knew, that they didn't need them, would they bring something else? Doubt it. They want the win, so of course they bring the big guns. As for me, I have the same silly pokemon with me everytime :D As long as Razor doesn't care, I'll keep using my favorites, and leave the big guns to the others ;)
One more thing. Were you talking about me? Sure sounded like you were :lol:

[pikaluva13]

the only one of the twelve up there that i have ever used was Garchomp, but that was only because i liked him, not because i knew it was used a lot, i just use him because i wanted to. whenever i battle the elite four, i just grab like 4 random people and i hope that i'll do well. i only battle for fun, that's why i haven't challenged any of the gyms, it would suck my fun out because i'm sure i'd lose to most of the gym leaders.

[Rayfox-Kun]

Hey Buzz if it helps i feel the same way:D
Most ppl i have battle over the years usually have the same pokemon that are listed up there. Almost all in the OU list.

I mean dont get me wrong or anything those are awesome pokemon but i hate using most if not all of them.
I like to use my faves since that is what makes it fun eventhought most of my faves are in the BL tier list i do have some that are also in the NU and UU lists.
All im trying to say is this all pokemon are awesome if you train them to be awesome. The pokemon you use dont matter as long as you have them trained right and you like them.Also its not all about winning its about showing what you have learned through your battles. So you can either bring out the big guns like nana said or bring out your faves,either way it will be an awesome battle.:D

[pikaluva13]

Hey Buzz if it helps i feel the same way:D
Most ppl i have battle over the years usually have the same pokemon that are listed up there. Almost all in the OU list.

I mean dont get me wrong or anything those are awesome pokemon but i hate using most if not all of them.
I like to use my faves since that is what makes it fun eventhought most of my faves are in the BL tier list i do have some that are also in the NU and UU lists.
All im trying to say is this all pokemon are awesome if you train them to be awesome. The pokemon you use dont matter as long as you have them trained right and you like them.Also its not all about winning its about showing what you have learned through your battles. So you can either bring out the big guns like nana said or bring out your faves,either way it will be an awesome battle.:D
yeah like you said, if you train them, they can be awesome: some people are just obsessed with getting great IV'd Pokemon, and that's great, but it takes out some of the fun of training your pokemon naturally, i mean, did ash trade pikachu until he got a good one, no he kept the first one and now they're best friends, i mean they hated each other at first, but now, look at them, they're inseparable. all of the pokemon that i use are ones that i catch and then train them, i don't necessarily care about the IV's, it just ruins my fun. Ok, i'm rating now so...yeah

[BugCatcher6]

I can say, when I've had a battle as the gym assistant, I've seen a lot of OU's. If they only knew, that they didn't need them, would they bring something else? Doubt it. They want the win, so of course they bring the big guns. As for me, I have the same silly pokemon with me everytime :D As long as Razor doesn't care, I'll keep using my favorites, and leave the big guns to the others ;)
One more thing. Were you talking about me? Sure sounded like you were :lol:

Not sure what part you mean. I did not mean anyone in general. I was trying to spark some interest in the gyms by showing people it does not matter if they win or lose.

nettie you do battle with Pokémon you like and despite my constant attempts to offer advice on team tweaks, you still battle with what you like and that is awesome. Like I said I got carried away with trying to be the best gym leader and it cost me a lot of battles. I have lost battles because I was to arrogant and thought this person cannot beat me.

I did not like that Buzz. What I found odd, as much as I wanted to destroy my opponents, I would help people in PMs to beat my gym he-he.

Heck a lot of members I beat took my classes or PM'd me and now have my er um the Beacon Badge.

I like helping people. If they end up winning a badge, that is enough for me.

That is another thing that remains so secret. I need help building a Pokémon for my team, but I cannot say his name or his type so nobody will find out my team, please help me. At one point I announce my entire team in the Beacon Gym. I am not saying everyone should post their team. I would like to see more people discuss though.

Like my two favorite Pokémon, that have been on almost every team I use. Miltank and Lanturn. You cannot believe how Miltank (BL tier) and Lanturn (UU tier) have done some major damage for my gym teams.

People would freak out when they battled my Miltank named Garbage. How can that cow be so fast.

I have swept teams with my Lanturn. Lanturn is awesome and very rarely would anyone use the best weapon against him, Grass. Earthquake is nasty, but most Lanturns hold a Shuca Berry. I get a kick out of people that use Grass Knot on Lanturn, Lanturn weighs nothing and receives very little damage.

There are a lot of BL, UU, and NU Pokémon not used because they are low tier. They should not be relied on to carry a team, but they can serve purposes. I battled a team the other day, it had some OU, but I managed to defeat most of them. The biggest problem I had with the team was a Dunsparce. I have never battled one before and this one was built well.

Amazing things a gym leader sees.

[Babael]

Eh, tiers don't matter. I tend to use pokemon I like or/and like the strategy of using. I tend to mix my tiers though. Nidoking FTW!

[Rayfox-Kun]

Exactly thats what im saying :D
Like for instance i like umbreon he is a good defense but even if he wasnt i would have him on my team anyways cause he is my fave :D

[revelp8]

still working on the nidoking babael? girl, if you can somehow record a match using him, i'd greatly appreciate it!

nidoking was so BA back in the Gen I days. but now you hardly see him in any matches, even in NU/UU tiers.

but what would I care, with the right training, he can be the beast that he was meant to be.

its all about fun you see :lol:

[BugCatcher6]

See now this is a debate. I never even thought about IV bred vs. wild Pokémon.

I am guilty of IV breeding beast, but that is the farmer in me.

I like this. Every person that posted has their own way of building a team and they are all right in their way.

The goal was to try an do away with the one comment though that pikaluva made.


i only battle for fun, that's why i haven't challenged any of the gyms, it would suck my fun out because i'm sure i'd lose to most of the gym leaders.

Losing does stink, but it can also be fun. I learn more from a loss most times.

Everyone has a learning curve and skill level. The great thing about video games is that skill level can be increased.

[pikaluva13]

yeah, like i always keep my starter in my party, just because i'm weird like that, and i think like a real trainer would, like ash and pikachu. Ash wouldn't give pikachu to Oak, he'd let him travel with him, because he started with him (that and because half the audience would leave if pikachu left)

[nana nettie]

Being afraid of losing or not having confidence in your skills is no reason not to atleast try. Trying never hurts, sitting and wondering what if is far worse. So you lose a battle if you try, not trying and you could lose a piece of yourself.

I never want to sit and wonder what if.

Who does this sound like ;)

Yes, you've tried, Babael tried, Belnum tried, but Nana is a little stubborn :o
It's not so much that I'm afraid of losing, it's more of wasting someones time :oops: I feel bad when they want to battle, and they would have had a better battle in game :oops:

[pikaluva13]

See now this is a debate. I never even thought about IV bred vs. wild Pokémon.

I am guilty of IV breeding beast, but that is the farmer in me.

I like this. Every person that posted has their own way of building a team and they are all right in their way.

The goal was to try an do away with the one comment though that pikaluva made.



Losing does stink, but it can also be fun. I learn more from a loss most times.

Everyone has a learning curve and skill level. The great thing about video games is that skill level can be increased.
well yeah i know that losing can sometimes be fun, but i would so obsessed with trying to beat the gym, that i would lose the fun of it

[BugCatcher6]

yeah, like i always keep my starter in my party, just because i'm weird like that, and i think like a real trainer would, like ash and pikachu. Ash wouldn't give pikachu to Oak, he'd let him travel with him, because he started with him (that and because half the audience would leave if pikachu left)

My starter Chimchar, now Infernape is now level 100, he can take down the entire Elite 4 and the Champion himself.


Who does this sound like ;)

Yes, you've tried, Babael tried, Belnum tried, but Nana is a little stubborn :o
It's not so much that I'm afraid of losing, it's more of wasting someones time :oops: I feel bad when they want to battle, and they would have had a better battle in game :oops:

You have never wasted my time. I like entertaining the elderly he-he. Na all joking aside, you have never wasted my time. Every time we have battled I have seen improvements, so with just the thought that you may have picked up some tips from me or our battles is never a waste of time.

[pikaluva13]

yeah, with my two starters from this and (i believe emerald) i can take out the whole elite four and cynthia one is lvl 90 and the other 73 or something

[Rayfox-Kun]

From My Ruby Version my starter Blaziken was able to handle the hoenn elite four and the sinnoh elite four all by himself
im so proud of him:D

[pikaluva13]

i take my earlier statement back, it was sapphire not, emerald

[nana nettie]

I can honestly say, that everyone of my battles (except for 1) I've had fun, and I've learned something. I will keep having battles, having fun, and use my pokemon. My goal is to breed the pokemon that I like to play with, then battle with them, and hope that some day I'll win :) but if I don't, it's still ok, because they're my pokemon :mrgreen:

[Babael]

still working on the nidoking babael? girl, if you can somehow record a match using him, i'd greatly appreciate it!

nidoking was so BA back in the Gen I days. but now you hardly see him in any matches, even in NU/UU tiers.

but what would I care, with the right training, he can be the beast that he was meant to be.

its all about fun you see :lol:

If I could I would, this one's gonna be extra special. Nidoking is full of awesomeness. I can't wait to start using him.

[pikaluva13]

yep, exactly, even if you lose, it's not the end of the world (i hope), and you can learn different strategies for beating them the next time you'd battle them. I really only have one one pokemon of mine that i actually have a stategy with in battling, and i've not touched the attacks, i don't think so at least.

[BugCatcher6]

yep, exactly, even if you lose, it's not the end of the world (i hope), and you can learn different strategies for beating them the next time you'd battle them. I really only have one one pokemon of mine that i actually have a stategy with in battling, and i've not touched the attacks, i don't think so at least.

Not the end of the world.

I for one think world issues should be fought with Pokémon and not guns.

Mr. President you do know that the Sleep Clause is in effect?

Um Kim Jong-il I believe you hacked that Arceus.

[pikaluva13]

Not the end of the world.

I for one think world issues should be fought with Pokémon and not guns.

Mr. President you do know that the Sleep Clause is in effect?

Um Kim Jong-il I believe you hacked that Arceus.
LOL! that would make me laugh so hard, expecially if they called them poke-uh-mans

[Rayfox-Kun]

it would be cooler to fight out our disputes with pokemon instead of guns like you said it would be less violent and less ppl would die and or end up injured and if the pokemon do get injured Nurse Joy can fix them up like new:D

[Cinder]

I for one think world issues should be fought with Pokémon and not guns.

Run for office with this as your foreign policy platform and you've got my vote. :P

[pikaluva13]

Run for office with this as your foreign policy platform and you've got my vote. :P
he'd have my vote too...lol

[BugCatcher6]

LOL! that would make me laugh so hard, expecially if they called them poke-uh-mans

It is sad to hear non-gamer adults say Pokémon.

My Vice-President, Mr. Mime I choose you he-he.

[pikaluva13]

Mime? Mime mime mime mime mime mime mime (goes back to cleaning Mrs. Ketchums kitchen)

[Reptyler]

Well, my feelings are as follows: I'm competitive. Strong Pokémon appeal to me not because everyone else uses them, but because they're strong. For that reason, you're likely to see me bring a lot of OU pokes to the table. My favorites from Gen I were Mewtwo and Gengar because they were so ridiculously powerful and cool looking. I find that very appealing. :150: :094:

However, I'll add a disclaimer to that: the fact that everyone uses them can be a disadvantage in that your strategies are likely well-publicized. It's always been my policy to surprise and always keep your opponent guessing. From FPS games to Starcraft to board games like Risk, I always like to be a loose cannon. You never know what to expect. :P

[puffdaddy]

I have made a lot of fun pokemon, as well as overused pokemon. A lot of the fun stuff actually turn up to be very helpful in battle too! That's the beauty of roulette battles, it doesn't matter if you win or lose, because, it's just for fun! :D

[pikaluva13]

I have made a lot of fun pokemon, as well as overused pokemon. A lot of the fun stuff actually turn up to be very helpful in battle too! That's the beauty of roulette battles, it doesn't matter if you win or lose, because, it's just for fun! :D
roulette battles? do you mean mixed battles?

[revelp8]

read belnum's post down there. you never know what they might bring in. i bring in my shiny glaceon every once in a while to the OU tiers, and man, they're flabbergasted. i mean, they're thinking n00b, and im thinking, your gonna have one heck of a surprise. :lol:

[BugCatcher6]

I like how it takes like 5-10 minutes for everyone challenging my gym to make a move. I chalk it up to they are frantically searching for info on my diverse team.

How many Pokémon on my gym team have you seen in battles outside my gym? I can tell you that I know of two.

[revelp8]

the first time i've seen those pokes was in your gym. i don't wanna give anything away buzz, have you seen the first gen anime for pokemon?

[belnumcree]

Explanation for roulette battles from quite some time ago.



Lets say that you have 30 pokemon that are EV trained (or not and you just want to use them). You tell your opponent that you have 30 pokemon and your opponent picks 6 random numbers between 1 and 30. For example:

6, 22, 12, 26, 14, 30

You take the pokemon in the boxes corresponding to the number picked. So, the first number is 6. So you go to the box your pokemon are and you take the 6th pokemon, counting from the top. Then get numbers 22, 12, and so on. Now, one of the main rules is that the first number picked, it has to be your starting pokemon, even if you get a Blissey picked. It has to lead your team. Then it just goes on like a normal battle. In roulette, there is no species clause, so even if you somehow get 6 Blisseys picked, you have to use them. Also, item clause is also void. And the items that are on your pokemon at first are the items that stay on a pokemon. You can't just throw a Choice Scarf on the leading pokemon because it would be a better starter that way. You have to keep the same items on it. And finally, the last rule is: Don't cheat and pick other pokemon just because you don't like the ones assigned to you. In roulette its very unlikely for you to get a good team. Your supposed to have junk like 6 sweepers or 6 walls (not really that bad but you get the point). So don't cheat.

[pikaluva13]

Explanation for roulette battles from quite some time ago.
oh, well that sounds like fun!

[BugCatcher6]

I would like to take the name of every Pokémon and put them into The Hat program I have and then have each person use the Pokémon The Hat selects for them.

Now that would be wild. Completely random like the Shoddy Random Pokémon Battle.

[pikaluva13]

I would like to take the name of every Pokémon and put them into The Hat program I have and then have each person use the Pokémon The Hat selects for them.

Now that would be wild. Completely random like the Shoddy Random Pokémon Battle.
wow...now that would be really fun...unless i ended up with a crappy pokemon...but it'd be awesome for whoever gets smearagle...i mean think of the possibiliies on that!